jsage's Blog

The Democratic Party has a vested interest in an Iraqi loss. I find that disgusting!! What kind of a party puts their political capital in an American military loss?

Trust me you will hear nothing positive about Iraq during this election. The biggest issue this fall will be high gas prices.

Hey, yeah, things are going GREAT over in Iraq right now!

In fact, I hear they're just cleaning up a few loose ends, like which fighting religious group will lead the country when we're gone, and then we're out of there!

As a Democrat, I really am worried that with things going so WELL in Iraq recently, that the public is going to really want MORE OF THE SAME MCCAIN to keep it going!

The economy, too! Heck, it's doing GREAT! This is NOT GOOD for Democrats - what with everything being so darn good and all the way they are, I don't see how ANYONE would want NEW LEADERSHIP when what we have right now is doing such a SUPERB job!

Look on TV right now! All the Shiites and Sunnis and Kurds are all in a PEACE MARCH, with flowers in their hair, celebrating the end of 5000 years of hatred! Wow, you're right - just look at them, all hugging and kissing! The Kurds just volunteered to give their territory to the poor Sunni's!

I also just heard the war costs were wrong - actually, we only spent $50 BILLION! That's all! Why, that's less than we give to Israel every year! Bush is going to use the rest of the money to shore up Social Security, I heard.

Okay - back to reality.

Yeah, I can see why you Republicans sure do DREAM that things get better before November!

Alas, that will never happen, so it looks pretty good for Democrats all up and down the line right now, doesn't it?

I'm a democrat, so you all know my biases....I do not reject the idea that conditions are improving in Iraq as a result of the surge. It would be foolish to ignore the success of the surge. I'll also admit that I doubted the success of the surge. OK, bam! i was wrong. But the republicans are still missing an essential point. Just because conditions are improving does not mean that conditions are good. There's an important distinction to be drawn there. Is Iraq as big a mess as it was two years ago? Probably not. But it does not logically follow that our continued involvement over there will lead to a wonderful and peaceful solution in the end. The republicans will blame dems of placing their political capital in american failure. That's a very cynical way to look at it. I see our occupation and invasion of iraq as an inherent failure in and of itself. Our continued presence there is a failure. So I would turn the tables around on the republicans. Those who believe we should continue a futile, unjustified and vain objective....THAT is the failure. That is a failure to our history of foreign policy and above all a failure to the troops and their families whose lives are being lost in vain. It's a tragedy. Democrats have placed their political capital in protecting these troops and restoring american values. That's political capital in success, not failure

Again, I'll be the first to admit that things are improving in Iraq. But just because they are improving does not mean that they can be entirely fixed. It does not mean that success is around the corner. It does not justi

I think you have to view these situations with a cost/benefit analysis. Reasonable minds can differ on this point, but I think we're exhausting too much energy, money, suffering, lives, etc. in Iraq. I don't think it's worth it, basically. If we had a reasonable chance of actually making a stable and democratic government in Iraq i would support it whole heartedly. But accomplishing such a goal does not appear likely. I think stability in Iraq is not an impossibility, but I think it's up to the Iraq people, not us. I don't think we can force feed them. In fact, i tend to believe shoving it down their throats will probably only tend to make them more resistant and resentful towards the U.S. and our values. Our involvement is counterproductive. In fact, statistics have reflected that recruitment for terrorist organizations has sky rocketed since our involvement. The sad truth is, we're antagonizing folks over there, we're making more enemies than friends. That's not good, is it?

I love democracy and capitalism. It's the best system. But i've grown up with it, reflected on its beauty and learned to accept some of its faults. For some people, democracy is a very foreign and odd concept. It's different. It is hard for some to see democracy's merit. I think it is understandable that an Iraqi might be resistant to any idea, no matter how seemingly noble, when it is introduced to them by way of foreign invaders. I think this holds true even if those invaders have noble and good intentions. You have to take into account and consider a perspective completely different than your o

You have to take into account and consider a perspective completely different than your own.

Comparing Iraq to Korea and Germany is simply unreasonable. We were welcomed in Germany following WWII b/c of the marshall plan where we helped them rebuild. The Germans, for the most part were willing to work with us and happy to recieve our aid. This is not so in Iraq. Iraq and Post WWII Germany are two very different animals. South Korea also has an interest in our presence in their country; they have a menace to their north (north korea). These are countries that, for the most part, welcome our presence. And no one will deny that our presence has been helpful in those places. But the same is simply not true in Iraq and the same was certainly not true in Vietnam (we lost over 50,000 men in Vietman). Iraq poses no direct threat to us. Vietman posed no direct threat to us. They are/were unnecessary wars.

I understand your argument jsage. Correct me if i'm wrong, but you believe our intentions are noble, we're on the right track, and we shouldn't give up. Is that a correct assessment? You're optimistic about Iraq, and I respect optimism. I tend to not be a cynic, and I don't feel I'm being one now. I care deeply for the welfare of our troops and my concerns are great when I believe we're engaging in something that will produce little if any success. Despite the downturn in violence following the surge, we are still failing in Iraq. The costs are greater than the benefits. Ignoring reality and insisting on "staying the course" is stubborn and unreasonable. It is not the polic

I do believe we can succeed in Iraq. I also belive that there is a direct connection between us being there and no new attacks on the US. What cost benefit is there there? I see where the Iraq gov is taking more control of the country and that is success. The reason we got into this war is because we had a treaty to defend Kwait. Remember Iraq attacked Kwait. The war did not end when we pushed Iraq back into there own boarders but the fighting was put on hold under a agreement that Iraq didn't live up to. It became a matter of honoring that treaty or do like we did to South Vietnam. The solution the Dem's have will bolden the people that want to distroy the US. In both Korea and Germany we went into them during war. Not because the people wanted us. Same as Iraq.

Now that we've established our actual reasons for going to war perhaps you can understand why some people (myself included) have been a bit disturbed by the results: There were in fact, no WMDs...what a disapointment. Also, the supposed link between Iraq and 9/11 also proved not true.

That reminds me of one more thing. You state that you believe there is a direct connection between our occupation of Iraq and no new attacks on U.S. soil. Excuse me when I say that's just silly. Let me remind you of some facts. Of the 19 hijackers on 9/11, 15 were from saudi arabia. Guess how many from Iraq? Zero. That's right. Also the attack was planned by al queda who was provided safe harbor by the taliban. Where are the taliban from? Afghanistan, not Iraq. There is no link between Iraq and 9/11. It is difficult to make a compelling argument (as you have attempted) that there is a link between our occupation there and preventing future attacks.

We would be better off invading saudi arabia, right? I'm not serious, but wouldn't that make more sense? Turns our Saudi Arabia is one of our strongest allies in the middle east. How ironic. But that's another discussion entirely.

And sir, your comparisons of Iraq to Germany and Korea only make you appear uninformed. There were no radical extremist muslim terrorist groups in either Germany or Korea nor has there ever been. There were the nazis, that's true...And obviously those were some evil bastards. But for whatever reason the germans and the koreans accepted defeat in a much different way than the people in Iraq. Please, do yourself

p.s. why the heck won't this thing let me put my whole message in to one message? And again, sorry I'm so long winded. Jsage, i do appreciate the time you're taking to hear me out, I mean that.

jsage - amazing isn't it that all of the Dems had a look at the same intel that GWB used and concurred with the fact that we had to go into Iraq. Now they're trying to backpedal out of it like crazy. Then again, we're still in Bosnia but you never hear them in a snit over that.

sanchopanza - and I like that name, it's one of my favorite Cuban Torpedos to be enjoyed after a good meal....I find it extremely hypocrital that the Dems want to cut and run out of Iraq leaving it to the terrorists raping, pillaging and killing all the while you're trying to set up a country club down at Gitmo for this scum. It doesn't add up.

One more thing, I assure you the democrats are not interested in setting up a country club at gitmo. I assume you refer to the recent controversial supreme court decision. I can definitely understand your concern about affording "terrorists" some civil liberties. Without affording them some civil liberties we can't really find out whether or not they are actually terrorists. As you likely know, our government has already released a couple hundred of detainees b/c we ultimatley found that they posed no threat and/or they actually turned out to not be terrorists at all. That's unfortunate. Surely you can sympathize with an innocent person being held in captivity away from their family and loved ones. I suspect there are still a few people like that and perhaps some judicial review will be of assistance in finding those guys. I can assure you that the last thing i would ever want to happen is for an actual terrorist to get out of there. Those bastarads should be locked up forever. I think the democrats feel the same way. Sometimes it can be very difficult to protect the country and uphold some of our dearest rights at the same time. It's no easy balancing act. But trust me, the democrats have little interest in creating a country club for terrorists. They just want to make sure that rights are not abused, innocent people are not being held, etc. What's wrong with that?